9:39 AM ageefess: hey deadletter
Blue here
me: yo, parallel processing.
ageefess: lol
so I need to let you be linear or can you chat?
me: be aware that my chat is track 3
9:40 AM ageefess: got it
9:41 AM I assume you saw the note General and I were sent by Sweetthang? I have since tried to contact the General and Lady K a few times with no response at all
9:42 AM me: Well, I barely was able to drag her into a board meeting, cause then Aiden is back from being out of town for several days, and then she leaves for 4 days out of state. So she's trying to spend time with her children before she is gone. more time next week.
ageefess: ah ok
me: general is working 10pm to 6am shifts, and passing out during the day.
9:43 AM scheduling that board meeting was hell.
ageefess: ah ok...
what kinda board meeting
me: She did mention that she responded to Sweetthang that yes, placement shoudl consider it an entirely second camp application, and that was all they responded.
board meeting for Tool Shed, our tool oriented non-profit.
9:44 AM woodshop, metal shop, video lab, darkroom.
ageefess: ok cool...
I wondered what you think of this response...
9:45 AM me: You keep saying that 'communication will need to happen'. I would point out that that is not a _need_.
ageefess: Hi Sweetthang,

Thank you for your email and I am sorry for the delayed response.

It was my goal to make contact with the General (Greg Perkins), but as of yet, no response (despite a few attempts). In light of this, it is my request that we file as separate camps.

I would ask that our camp be placed on 5-7 o'clock Esplanade if possible, and let the General's camp occupy the Center Camp position. I would ask that our submitted camp name be renamed as [Talk to Deadletter about].

If necessary, I am willing to provide more detailed illustrations that might be expected to accompany Esplanade placement.

Please let me know if you have received this email and if this information allows you to proceed with placement of our camp.

Thank you,

Blue
Nothing is a need
9:46 AM But it would be helpful so we don't look like duffuses to BRC and Gerlach post office
me: No person can hold another person to an obligation of time - voting with one's feet (giving energy where we will) is one of the only ethical leverages we can place upon a system.
ageefess: anyway... need, want whatever...
9:47 AM me: It's not their obligation to make sure that you don't look like a doofus to the gerlach po and the bmorg. they've already laid the groundwork for their own framing/position in that system.
ageefess: I am not going to argue about that
but if they, for example, want to only have one place have a postmark
9:48 AM some communication might be helpful
not obligated
but helpful
and with the joint tools they have
me: well, that's my point about 'hitting the ground running' - they are well down the lane in terms of having those things lined up.
ageefess: eh
9:49 AM me: and they have no obligation to be helpful to you and your project, who ends up coming across as a late-starter, whether or not you feel that you have a separate and legitimate claim to the project.
ageefess: as one of our campmates just wrote me on your outlook as follows "I can't agree with turning blindsiding your campmates into a virtue"
me: legitimacy is perceptual, posession being nine-tenths, etc.
they don't see you and those people as 'campmates'
ageefess: and "He's just transmitting info 2nd hand. And giving Lady K credit for Margaret's sorting work is just plain inaccurate."
me: at least I don't think so.
9:50 AM ageefess: they are community mates then
me: Margaret of the BRCPO or Gerlach PO?
ageefess: no
of BRCPO
me: are they? that's your wish, they dont' have to agree with that framing.
ageefess: you're right
from your frame
and I agree with you
9:51 AM I don't want to expend effort on figuring out what they owe
us
etc
me: snigger
'owe
'
ageefess: ?
9:52 AM forget owe
but I feel I owe the community I am serviing information
me: your language betrays you, young jedi.
have you ever read, "And then there were none..."
ageefess: no
9:53 AM who wrote it
me: www.abelard.org/e-f-russell.htm has the full text.
eric frank russell.
9:54 AM ageefess: main point? I mean, you're right that at this point our verbal jousting doesn't matter... may the best camp succeed
or both, who knows
me: well, I will tell you that I think they are leaving it to the bmorg, which may or may not be the best strategy.
9:55 AM ageefess: I think they are doing the same thing
and it's a mistake
because BMORG cares... but not that much
me: cause what's the bmorg gonna do? They have very little criteria for 'picking', and it's not clear that they know that they are being asked to 'pick'
ageefess: yeah, I wanna change our name slightly
9:56 AM and I told them they can have the CC position
me: Remember, you swore up and down that Lady K was the devil, so they took their toys and made their own camp. live with the consequences of your choices.
ageefess: that is the way you are interpreting my words
and they can have their toys
me: I am trying to convince them NOT to take a center camp position, in order to have a psychological break from years past.
perhaps both camps can/should take 3:00 and 9:00?
9:57 AM ageefess: I would rather have esplanade
me: Burning Man Community Postal Service (the general and Lady K et al)
ageefess: as you can see in my letter to placement above
me: or esplanade, 3:30 and 8:30
if there are two camps, symmetry would be healing, I believe.
ageefess: did they change their name, or no?
me: I think both should change names.
Do you have any name ideas?
9:58 AM let go of the past, embrace a new future.
ageefess: I love your brand... I was thinking I like "Deadletter"
me: deadletter accepts all thefts: deadletter: accept all substitutes!
ageefess: no! really?
9:59 AM me: There's been a different kind of Dead Letter Office in the past.
it was for writing letters to dead people. it was sad.
ageefess: I want your postmark everything... and a cameo apprearance in the camp :-)
10:00 AM postmark = branding trademark you have on everthing
I love it
anyway... here is what I think would be good...
if you know the answers great
me: how much are you joking? I made the mistake of posting my anti-albi diatribe to the list, and having drawn that line in the sand would have a hard time working with him under my branding.
10:01 AM ageefess: do you really feel that way? I mean he can be an asshole
but so what
we all are at times
10:02 AM if Lady K and General come by my camp, I will welcome them as BRC citizens
me: His language is only alterable from afar. It's filled with what people 'should' do and how they 'should' act.
anyway, what you think would be good:
ageefess: 1) would the other BRCPO prefer us to fight for the postmark from Gerlach or would they be willing to accept mail we collect and avoid that fight?
10:03 AM me: probably
ageefess: probably... which? lol
me: oh, hah.
I believe that you can very easily hand them a huge stack of stamped mail and say, "for usps" and at that second you will have 'mailed' it in a legal sense.
10:04 AM certainly allows your camp to operate under a greater amount of freedom relating to behavior and whatnot, which is what a large amount of controversy from previous years has included, to wit: behavior surrounding the potential crime of mail interference.
10:05 AM ageefess: it would make things easier, but I worry that General and Lady K, knowing that would not want to make things easier on me
or our camp
10:06 AM me: they will take mail from any source. you could always send it with an innocent.
ageefess: lol
true
me: next question is probably: will they share the bags of mail that need to have a good-faith effort to be 'delivered'.
10:07 AM ageefess: nah, I wouldn't ask it of them
me: ?
you would do intra-playa mail and mail to go off-playa and call it a day?
shit, you're in the clear, then.
ageefess: right!
10:08 AM the interation can be minimal or none... however...
me: that's all easy as pie. No coordination necessary, and be careful to indicate somehow (The Fine Print) that mail accepted isn't mailed till someone, of their own volunteer gifting of time, takes it to a location considered to be a legal federal mailing drop point (gerlach or the cancellation camp)
10:09 AM so then pick another name, have two NON brcpo-named post offices, and this divorce is as simple as my wifes and I. We owned nothing. She said, "you take the credit card debt, and we're good to go!"
ageefess: I will tell you, I do think of the General like a brother... a very grumpy one... and someday I hope we can hug and make up... he treated my Mother with such respect when she visited the BRCPO, and he did everything to treat her right.
10:10 AM me: so what was the 'however'?
ageefess: the howeevr is
me: sounds like the name is the thing, and then we get to see several years of two camps. Which could have happened years ago.
would have been healthier for all.
10:11 AM ageefess: the however is that despite the fact that we don't have to interact, I would like to on a separate and personal level with General when it makes sense... and Lady K too
this split only occured in 2007
10:12 AM me: nah, it was a long time coming. I've been watching the PO for a long time.
ageefess: there was no issue of splitting before this
me: it was an underlay
you were losing people that you weren't noticing, that I was meeting all over the play.
playa.
ageefess: I don't think Lady K is the devil, but I don't like the way she acted out there last year... and I think not being in the same camp will allow us to make peace if she is willing
10:13 AM losing people yes... but we all knew why
me: volunteers who thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, and who bounced off of the power-clique who were anathema to them.
the reputation of the BRCPO as assholes had very little to do with window-service to participants, and everything to do with the rejection stories of people who wanted to contribute.
since 2003, my first year with the brcpo.
10:14 AM ageefess: and there weren't too camps within a camp... there were people who were power-mongers (mostly at the windows) and harrassers
two camps that is
me: you had people still at the brcpo, and a huge electron cloud of people with first-hand stories of trying to be at the brcpo and leaving.
10:15 AM PedEx is being revived again, as well.
ageefess: cool
what do you think of the name BRCPO 2.0?
10:16 AM me: So if you want to make nice with them, do it AFTER this year's burn. Don't try to have some on-playa conference, or transformative conversation, resist that tendency at all costs. Cause the tendency to make up on playa results in incomplete healing.
10:17 AM Let's see, what do we call our city? Black Rock City, Burning Man, The Burn...
Aren't there any other euphimism that don't have the same acronym as before?
ageefess: perhaps I should send em some nice mail on playa
me: hate mail would be funnier.
anyway, names.
ageefess: ha ha
yes
10:18 AM hate mail! or a hate mail-a-gram that was funny as hell
with a lap dance
me: are you at all worried that you are going to keep someo f the people that BOTH camps would rather dump? The harassers/abusers?
ageefess: yes, but...
10:19 AM me: another good reason for BOTH camps to take a new location, see? so that those ne-er do wells walk up to slide right back into their old role, and have to go to a new place and really face the new-ness before stepping into the same old problem.
ageefess: I was also thinking that with our plan we would have a facade outside the facade that would allow people who wanted to be abuses harrassed etc consent before they got any
10:20 AM I published our plan for everyone to see
me: names, names...
10:21 AM I think both camps have a chance at health. I also think that chance at health is predicated on a symbolic break from the old.
Let the old be the sin eater.
It's like that dog in "Best In Show" when it was actually the adults who were psycho.
10:22 AM still, they let, in their minds, the 'dog be the problem' and then their relationship worked.
10:23 AM ageefess: ever heard of "hashing"
Hash House Harriers?
there are all these clubs... no centralization
all are Hash House Harriers
10:24 AM but each has it's own name and designation and culture
me: it's a running?
thing?
ageefess: yes
drinkers with a running problem
fun as hell
anyway, that is what I was thinking the brcpo model might be
me: how about a verb:
ageefess: we keep the name with designators
10:25 AM me: Going Postal
ageefess: so differentiate
10:26 AM me: Or if they are the BMCPS (Burning Man Community Postal Service), you could be the opposite of Community. What's the opposite of Community?
ageefess: I think we should stick with BRCPO in one way or another
oh
10:27 AM were you serious or not about stealing your logo trademark name etc
because if you were, I would like to seriously consider that
10:28 AM me: if you are hung up on the BRCPO, then there's not a lot I can do to massage this situation.
ageefess: well pretty much everything that can be done is done...
me: this symbolic center is a sticking point.
10:29 AM ageefess: what center?
they can have the center
center camp
they can have BRCPO too
me: if either group uses the old name, then they are making a presentation to the world that invokes the history of the old BRCPO.
ageefess: some of the history is good
10:30 AM we are in the United States
which had slavery
and bad stuff
but let's keep the name
because there is good stuff too
and you can't deny the history
10:31 AM it happened
me: I feel like you aren't hearing me. Both can be equal offspring of the BRCPO project which lasted many years. if either of them takes the name right now, here at the moment of separation, then it's a pissing match over who is the 'real' offspring.
10:32 AM ageefess: I think I do hear you
I just disagree
me: Then what was the point of this whole conversation?
10:33 AM ageefess: I think the BRCPO with slight modification could let poeple know the history, but that we're different
me: You and they will go down the vortex, everyone will hate everyone, the Bmorg will have to choose.
ageefess: lol
I don't think so
we'll change our name
if not slightly, to something cool
like Deadletter
me: Both sides letting go of that symbolic center allows for growth and diversity.
10:34 AM after a year or three, it will be that the BRCPO gave birth to two projects.
ageefess: but were you serious about not being pissed at intellectual stealing of your brand
me: Depends... does the logo go with with name?
ageefess: I like that logo
me: Would you call it "Burning Man Dead Letter Office" or simply
"Deadletter"
10:35 AM ageefess: Deadletter Post Office"?
me: If you were using 'deadletter' i'd want to get all involved in making a deadletter system on playa for doing hand-to-hand mail around the country and playa, cause deadletter is all about hand-to-hand mail.
ageefess: hell yeah
that sounds awesome
me: here's the difference, though, between that and traditional BRCPO delivery.
10:36 AM ageefess: you take out USPS
and you have to find the peeps that are going back to whereever
that's a real fucking project
me: at the brcpo, participants were allowed to become delivery agents, and they carried mail from the sender to the delivery, being sort of close-fisted about not letting go of the mail till it was real close to them (their friend, boyfriend, campmate, etc).
10:37 AM with deadletter in general (off-playa), we give mail to people, all over the country, and say, "give this to someone going to chicago" or "give this to someone going to florida" and when it gets closer, they give_it_away
10:38 AM so deliverers under the deadletter branding would have to be encouraged to take a little bit more of a fuck-all approach to the mail.
ageefess: but ultimatly it gets to the person? have you done this before?
10:39 AM me: I do mail all year round. I did hundreds of pieces of mail at Flipside last week. The mail travels, people improve it, it's all opened and written on and changed. It's a connectivity game and art piece, and when a mail actually gets delivered it's actually sort of too bad.
cause then it isn't traveling any more.
10:40 AM ageefess: wow
me: I do deadletter all the time
that's why, if you were to adopt the branding, you might accidentally be adopting more than you meant to.
Though it's certainly tempting, though super weird.
Look at it this way... what is it you want this alternate post office to DO
10:41 AM ageefess: maybe peeps could have a choice: Postal Service or Dead Letter... and people would be splained the difference
and true artists would make the right choice
me: What is it that is at the core of your desire? To take mail at a _WINDOW_?
to have Participants carrying mail?
to deliver the mail?
ageefess: to make performance art at a window
10:42 AM me: window. you want WINDOW.
and all the rest is secondary?
ageefess: I like window
me: so you want a Postal Office Facade project.
ageefess: lol
maybe :-)
me: Cause what about the Potsal system?
do you understand that?
or remember it? or even know of it?
ageefess: no I do not
me: See, the Potsal system might actually be perfect for you.
10:43 AM The Potsal system involved a board with a HUGE map of the city.
ageefess: what is it
me: The mail goes on the board, and then people who are walking by are encouraged to take mail to that neighborhood. One piece of mail, one participant (or a few pieces of mail).
Potsal and Deadletter camped together one year, you see.
ageefess: I like that
Lots of good things to think about
10:44 AM I need to get back to workish stuff soon
me: the number of delivery people was probably 50x that of the BRCPO, and they never got on a high horse about being delivery peeps.
ageefess: thank you for talking with me
hope to meetcha on playa
me: You understand that I'll already be on playa doing Deadletter with my branding? I'll probably do 2000 pieces of mail on playa, for points off-playa, carried by burners heading out of state?
ageefess: ah ok
10:45 AM nice
didn't knpow
me: so if you say that you'd want to use my logo/name then I'd have to come over there and set it all up. and then I'm suddenly 'in' your camp working with you, etc.
ageefess: no
I said cameo
me: which isn't bad, it's definitely a new thought.
well, deadletter system's take a lot of maintenance.
ageefess: yeah no kidding
10:46 AM it might be biting of more than we can chew
lemme think about it, and thanks for the ideas
me: cause the worst/best part is that as people write to one of the empty envelopes with the name on it, the envelope has to be copied so as to not lose the person from the system.
10:47 AM I think you want to have something with the word "postal station" in it, like a british postal station.
cause the most important revelation to come out of this conversation is that the WINDOW is what you care about. So take that and run with it!
ageefess: be well deadletter
10:48 AM me: A Postal Window project, which was tied to a Potsal Board (after all of the window art, then the person simply walks over and puts it on the board for people to take with them in their walks!) would be hilarious.
So last question: where are you at with the name right now?
10:49 AM ageefess: yes, indeed
me: That they would be the BRCPO, and you'd be something else? that they might be BMCPS and you'd be BRCPO 2.0?
Black Rock Postal Station sounds nice.
BRPS
Black Rock Postal Service maybe.
ageefess: I am with the idea that General and Lady K aren't budging on the name either, and since they aren't communicating there is no way to know... so we'll go with a slight mod of BRCPO
10:50 AM me: I think they will be BMCPS if they don't have to fight with you about the name.
otherwise, neither can budge.
so someone has to go first.
would you not use the BRCPO contingent on them not using it either?
I could broker that.
it could be done.
10:51 AM ageefess: I think we'll do BRCPO 2.0... I wanted to do Black Rock City Post Office - An Uncensored Experiment
but too many letter to be accepted
me: Then it's back to having one and only one with the BMORG picking.
ageefess: 2.0 is tounge in cheek... it's different, it's the smae
me: so glad I could waste my time that I needed to be working on my homework before court this afternoon. I certainly won't give you the time and energy again.
10:52 AM ageefess: they doen't have to pick if one is even slightly differnt
so glad I could waste my time that I needed to be working on my homework before court this afternoon. I certainly won't give you the time and energy again....
so bitter
why?
later